I’ll have to keep looking for the sling or buy one at a Florida Appleseed event. I see in the other blog thread a few of those comments. 3/1/08. However, you don't get that with the backpacker. Handling your rifle quickly and accurately without support at 25 to 300 yards is your bread-and-butter skill set for the vast majority of hunting/battle situations encountered by average rifle toters/soldiers. Give it the half twist, shove in your arm, pull down the plastic slider, take a position (make sure the hand is trapped under the sling), and commence firing if appropriate. It is connected to whether the sling is an essential requirement. The instructors that helped us were nothing but friendly and informative. I attended an Appleseed last month with my daughter. Instead, I got a call from my friend Mark, who said that he was going to be in the area working an Appleseed shoot where some other friends were likely to be. If I can train with a rifle with others who value the struggle to become free….. in the past….that’s very attractive. It is the history of our country. Why? However, some people prefer to use a bipod, this works also. Somebody that hated the program wouldn’t blab all over a different forum how much they loved it, and how much others should go. I noticed something extremely odd and uncanny during this dope acquisition portion of the day. There is no limit on how many you can buy and no expiration date. Flinch issues are solved between the ears. The Sniper technique can be executed with just about any fast-adjust sling, like the Magpul MS1 ($34.95). I’ve got more than a little Army experience under my belt, about 36 years of it, in fact, most of it Army Guard, but the first 10+ years were Regular Army. Here’s my background. Use of a sling was not required and many people there didn’t have one. Appleseed teaches it too quickly for most students It is better to study ahead. It may well be true that for initially luring Suzie Soccer Mom into the ranks of shooters, some kind of “kinder, gentler” program would be more appropriate. have a different philosophy for introducing beginner shooters than they do, for sure. }(document, [
“I consider it reasonable intermediate distance (100-500 yards) marksmanship on targets that can be seen with the naked eye. 4. Instead I brought my SKS. I used a nylong sling … Also, I don’t need to actually go to one to get that impression, just like I don’t need to stick my hand into a pot of boiling water to know I wouldn’t enjoy the experience. Many scoff at Appleseed, but I found it to be a fabulous 2 days. PDB has made some solid, and I think well founded criticisms of the program. I questioned whether the packaging was really conducive to keeping shooters interested and getting them to want to come back to shooting. People have provided antecdotal evidence that it’s a wonderful program, and everyone has a great time and folks come back again and again to get themselves out of the kitchen, so to speak. I have no doubt that many people enjoy it, because shooting is pretty fun, after all. But does everyone? What about the people that walk away thinking this isn’t for them? Would they have enjoyed themselves in a better, more carefully crafted training program? I also question where all the money is going. Pulling their form 990s, they are spending almost a quarter of their 80k a year budget on travel. That’s not necessarily wrong, but it does raise some questions in my mind about what a 23k a year travel budget is accomplishing for the organization. Most of their budget, about half, is going into the bank. That’s not unusual for a non-proifit just starting out, but what projects or purpose are they saving nearly half the yearly budget for? Brownell’s is a one-stop shop for your competition needs. But we do try to reach out to all those that want to learn how to shoot. To get the maximum potential out of using the hasty sling, you have to blade your body to the target so the sling is snug up against the top of your pec and under the armpit. The use of a military/Army style program to teach marksmanship? I started shooting about 3 years ago. There were people there with AR15s, M1A1s, Garands, .35 Remington lever actions, 22s, CZ bolt action in 7.62×39 and some AK style rifles. “Mas shoots Clark Custom 10/22, using extended magazine as unipod, only to discover that technique is forbidden at Appleseed. It’s been more effective than any other known program. Your disagreement with me makes a strong case and is welcome, Unmentioned. The basis of Appleseed is to learn to be a rifleman able to shoot without external support for the rifle. I like to do a multi-stage treatment over a couple of weeks of mink oil and heavy-duty leather protector. PDB, I am in business (part time), and I know your repeat customers make or break you. Project Appleseed wants you to train to be able to shoot with essentially the same level of technology available during the Revolutionary War – a basic rifle, a traditional sling, and iron sights. 1907 sling? Particularly in an event where the participants are trying to attain the approval of the organizers! This may be useful information, but I’ve heard exactly the opposite from Appleseed people. I was concerned about getting my comeups in for each stage, having shot a lot of 25 meter AQT’s. I was so concerned that I asked the instructors to remind the shooters to do this during the preparation period. I think that by asking it created a mental reminder for me to always check my sight setting before each course of fire. I even remembered to reset them back to zero every time but one. Consistency is very important. I never felt that were trying to teach me the “one path” to shooting properly. You wouldn’t want to stand in front of a Master shooter’s target at 1000. They’re all cooks! The long-range supported stuff is only a majority of situations if you go out of your way to pursue that while also avoiding the other stuff. I'm thinking of attending an Appleseed shoot this spring, after doing a little research on their website I'm curious what folks who have done this before think would be the best rifle option for me. “Interested marksmen” would be an unusual way to refer to beginner shooters, would it not? Retired Maj. Plaster in his excellent sniper books shows the technique clearly and even illustrates the Cooper and hasty sling techniques. I’ll be looking for an Appleseed event near me. But it can make a huge difference in accurate shooting…especially at long ranges…when the time to set it up (less than a minute with practice) presents itself. Enjoyed the weekend of learning and shooting. Not at any time did I worry I had just signed up for any “wacky militia.” :-). ])
A low cost $10~$15 web sling will do the job just fine. Military match shooters use what Appleseed calls a “Hasty sling”, and if you think that’s bad to use, think again. If you are using the suggested loop sling you will want the loop high up on your support arm, with the sling behind your support wrist. Those little targets at 25 meters do not lie.Neither to the big ones at “correct” distance. They were just trying to teach me some basics of shooting and two ways to use a sling. However, it is slower than other methods. ), this series provides some helpful “how to” information. Or your cheek weld/eye position/butt in shoulder position could have changed. No, it’s a beginning. (Josh Wayner for TTAG) Breaking in a leather sling takes time and patience. for (i = 0; i < n; i = i + 1) {
We instructors get good at improvising. Go, take your Ak … The Appleseed Project is designed to ensure the next generations will the benefit of the same Liberties as the generations before them. I know the rule of 3’s and 9’s (happy customer tells 3, unhappy customer tells 9). However, it seems to be lost in "modern" carbine and precision rifle classes. I’m only going to think happy thoughts of perfectly executed shots from now on. This way, muscle is not required to support the rifle. Target 2 was shot on top of target 1 after it was marked. . ... technique. Corny? No bipods were allowed. Use of a sling as means to stabilize a rifle was (and maybe still is) taught by the USMC as part of it's rifleman training. …is an understatement. newScript.src = buildThese[i];
Project Appleseed's volunteer instructors discuss the events of Lexington and Concord as well as the actions of those involved. Those people are why I wrote my books. Well, I’ll go right out and disagree with you. Was I initially hesitant, thinking it might be a “militia thing”? Yikes. }
They don’t … Is Project Appleseed for everybody? Once we finished with the history talk, we learned a little about shooting. Appleseed, it seems to me, is geared to furthering the proficiency of people who already have aspirations of being riflemen (and riflewomenââriflepeopleâ just sounds dumb) in a Constitutional militia. This shoot did not quite follow the format of a normal Appleseed. If the organization is dead set against listening to criticism, then what the hell use is it? At the time, I wanted to bring my K31 but I didn’t think I could afford the ammo for it. An Appleseed instructor watches a student’s technique. He had to re-shoot.” ~From APPLESEED February 1st, 2010 by Mas Once I learned how to properly use the sling, I found it to be a big advantage towards creating a steady shooting platform. I hope for their and my sakes they have enough sense to read them. Doesn’t make me special, but it does mean I might have a clue as to exactly what the Army teaches and has taught over the past 36 years. The sling is high on the left arm where the bicep goes into the shoulder. ... though in the opposite respect. Project Appleseed provides introductory rifle marksmanship technique in standing, sitting (or kneeling) and prone positions. I was concerned about getting my comeups in for each stage, having shot a. I went home, cleaned the rifle completely, and inspected my problem mag. The sheet metal floorplate was too flat. It depends on a bit of springy-steel floorplate tension to keep it in place. A bit of careful squeezing in the vice yielded… absolutely no results. That steel is well heat treated. A bit of excessive squeezing in the vice worked. I don’t think the floorplate will ever come off again, even if I want it to. I’ll be cleaning mags from the top from now on. newScript = d.createElement('SCRIPT');
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Of course not. This is no different, in my humble opinion, than hunters throwing target shooters under the bus, or sporting clay shooters declaring that handgunning isn’t really a sport. There are many of these events. I just went back and read PDB’s original gripe with Appleseed and he does make some very good points. Am I to understand that your opinion, forged in the fiery crucible of your studious avoidance of Appleseed, is more valid than those the people who have allowed their minds to become clouded and polluted with firsthand experience? Look, as a former business owner, retail store manager, supervisor and QA tech, let me tell you that positive feedback means exactly jack and shit. Sometimes I run the applseed CoF to stay sharp on sling shooting. That being said, the Marines never quit using the sling, and they shoot even better than us Army pukes. Mostly trying to organize gun owners in my county to defeat my Congressman who has signed onto an assault weapons bill that would ban most of the rifles you guys use to teach Appleseed. It’s something they’re seeing for the first time. rotate the sling 1/2 turn towards your trigger arm. (function (d, buildThese) {
I’m not throwing anyone under the bus. :-). Teaching the sling went out years ago, with the Army, and they’re starting to regret that. We’re doing what we can and what we know to try to fix the country. The sling is used as the main support. A few names that are vaguely familiar, too. Appleseed, it seems to me, is geared to furthering the proficiency of people who already have aspirations of being riflemen (and riflewomen–“riflepeople” just sounds dumb) in a Constitutional militia. newScript.type = 'text/javascript';
"Appleseed" comes from Johnny Appleseed, the American folk hero who toured the country, planting appleseeds so that future generations would benefit. I’m an NCO, so you know. If you have years of experience and have already participated in some competitions, you MIGHT not get anything out of it. No sling mounting points on the forend. Most importantly, I love their message. Thatâs going to be a hard sell. Using a sling, a relaxed body, and the NPOA technique, a rifleman can consistently shoot 4 MOA groups at 500 yards. '//assets.pinterest.com/js/pinit.js'
I’m not even meaning to discourage Appleseed. Note that this criticism is totally unconnected to whether the sling is a good and valuable technique. I bet it is. I’d certainly like to learn it. It is connected to whether the sling is an essential requirement. Modern militaries clearly demonstrate that it is not. Appleseed says what do they know? They’re all cooks! I have a different philosophy for introducing beginner shooters than they do, for sure. I wouldn’t recommend taking a complete newbie to that kind of event… but it is one way to train. Is Appleseed the end of where you should be, marksmanship wise? Appleseed instruction typically advises the use of a loop sling for prone and sitting positions, and a hasty sling for standing. I’ve seen many humbled by that piece of paper only 82ft away. It is one of the major activities of The Revolutionary War Veterans Association, a 501 non-profit organization that teaches and promotes traditional rifle marksmanship, while also … They don’t have to listen to me. It’s an unconcious phenomenon you see all the time in martial arts schools. They pick a fairly unusual and specific technique: in this case, the sling, now abandoned by the world’s best military. Then they say that anyone who does not know this technique is not a real maritial artist: in this case, is a ‘cook’ not a ‘rifleman’. This enables them to feel exclusive and vastly superior to everyone else, and requires of them only a relatively small investment in practice. It’s a psychological trap. I predict getting others involved will become more and more a cover for an unconcious goal of demonstrating their superiority to the cooks. You … And the skills carry over to scopes & bipods way out there. Thanks for bringing them to our attention. A smallish loop goes over your upper bicep and the other end goes to the forward sling on the … The D targets are 26" wide and 19" tall. It’s not a bad niche to learn.”. You seem to be enjoying the journey. Am I to understand that your opinion, forged in the fiery crucible of your studious avoidance of Appleseed, is more valid than those the people who have allowed their minds to become clouded and polluted with firsthand experience? Rifle stuff repacked for the return trip, I winded down with a beer and got to sleep too late. Since we’ve taken contrary positions, we’ve been hearing more and more from dissatisfied Appleseed shooters. Appleseed uses the initial part of the program, 25 meters (never was 25 yards, or 30 yards, was 1000 inch before, because zeroing at 1000 inch or 25 meters gives you a 200 meter Battlesight zero with the M1 or M14, and a 300 meter Battlesight zero with the M16A1/A2). Use of a sling is still a corner stone of the method taught by the Appleseed Project as part of it's civilian rifleman program. We really don’t try to be. Of course not. Makes sense to diversify your training a bit. Honestly, shooting an AK out beyond 250 is difficult as the sights on most AK are not as fine as they are on an AR or M1 or M1A, etc, but you can still learn technique, regardless of the rifle, using the methods taught at an Appleseed. However, after having gone through a full weekend event with these guys, I have to say that if there is some hidden motivation at Project Appleseed, they’re doing a really good job of keeping it hidden. When I throw them that direction, it’s usually a flinch, either a shoulder buck or my support hand twitching away from the front swivel. Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. The scoffers are the ones who shoot from bench or prone/bipod/sandbags only. Using a sling … Keep the forward hand open or lightly gripping the rifle, fingers clear of the operating rod. Since my Appleseed had around 20 people, there was a good instructor-to-student ratio which allowed for a lot of personal attention and critiquing. I’m not saying it is good or bad… but it is probably right for some people and not others. I strongly disagree about the sling though. Maybe so, however that is frowned upon at Appleseed as Mas himself learned. Get them off the supports and watch 90% of them miss everything in sight. If they come through again, I’m definitely signing up. Yeah, some of what you’re saying is not just biased, but blatantly wrong info. People that aren’t happy, don’t come back again and again, and they don’t tell their friends either. The prone shooting position starts by laying on the ground with your rifle pointed towards your target. I’m offering my opinion on their program, and suggesting where I think they could improve their program. UPDATE: I should probably point out that I’m not at all criticizing the idea that it’s a great good to bring new shooters into the sport. Or that it’s a great idea to teach people rifle marksmanship. I’m not even going to heavily criticize teaching use of a sling. But I will take issue with selling it as the one true path to being a rifleman in the tradition of the revolutionary war soldier, whatever that means. And only one out of ten or more shoots from position. It’s a two day introduction to shooting for something like $35 a day taught by volunteers who are trying to do their best. I heard about the appleseed shoots off of the TheHighRoad.org site. BTW, I love your site Sebastian. We are also introduced to Appleseed’s version of the US Army Alternate “C” course, called the … Six or ten inch groups, off the bench at 100. I just took it as a little history lesson and a way to reflect on what I might have been called upon to do 200+ years ago. MJ52, you are dead-on correct about Appleseed and rifle shooters. Fineâthere are many such programs available. When done correctly, it's an amazing technique that deserves the attention. In known distance Appleseed AQTs or the Army full distance AQT this same target is set at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards. Fine–there are many such programs available. We shot a pair of âgreencoatâ targets in a way that made it a quasi AQT. That’s been taught on the civilian side for years. The stuff works to beyond 500. Galco ’s new RifleMann sling ($49.95) works, too. Hosted by Command Sergeant Major T. S. Decker (ret. I also found I was wrong. The proper sling technique is taught and stressed. Project Appleseed's volunteer instructors discuss the events of Lexington and Concord as well as the actions of those involved. What gets taught is the loop sling, and, believe it or not, these were THE slings used up to the issue of the M16A2 in the early ’80’s. It may well be true that for initially luring Suzie Soccer Mom into the ranks of shooters, some kind of âkinder, gentlerâ program would be more appropriate. ð. I also can tell you those anecdotes and comments are largely true. Ruger 10/22s are the most common rifles used and the USGI web slings are also very common. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. You wouldn’t want to stand in front of a Master shooter’s target at 1000. Your email address will not be published. Is a sling appropriate for every situation? Forward and downward motion of that wrist against the sling pulls the sling against the back of your upper arm, and once it tightens up it will prevent your support wrist from moving any further downward (where the weight of the rifle wants to push it). The loop sling is the preferred method. But is “introducing beginner shooters” what we’re talking about here? I wanted to give the sling a fair review, but wasn’t sure about drilling into the walnut stock on #1, so I figured that I would install a third stud on the Remington 700 I shoot, which has a Freeland rail. The Appleseed AQT. My take on that is sn appleseed shoot isn’t a week long intensive sniper school.
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